Knife defense

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RJ Warrior
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Knife defense

Postby RJ Warrior » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:03 am

A couple of weeks ago, our department sent us to a class entitled "Aikido or Law Enforcement." In the class, the instructor taught us a number of basic techniques to combat punches, grabs, and eventually knife attacks. Most of the techniques were nothing new, just the same outdated tactics that are constantly shown, maybe with a few slight variations based mostly around personal preference of the instructor.

While I'm not a big fan of wrist locks for self-defense in law enforcement, I was flat out concerned when we got to the knife defense. For example, from an ice pick grip attack, a downward stab, the instructor literally taught us to stand directly in front of the attacker, and catch the attacking wrist with two hands in a "V" shape. My jaw must have almost hit the floor when he taught that defense, and was serious about it. Each technique he taught was worse than the previous. However, I only spent a short time training in Kali myself, and train mostly in MMA for competition. I realize the flaw in my approach when it comes to law enforcement, but do have a background in self-defense application, and even taught defensive tactics in my old agency.

Anyway, I have been spending some time lately, researching knife attacks and defenses from various systems. I have watched real video of people encountering a suspect or attacker with a knife. Not coming as a surprise, the techniques the Aikido instructor taught us would probably get us cut to ribbons at best, but most likely killed. Where was the deployment of our various tools, (especially our firearm?) Where was the changing of angles? There were so many flaws. I already sent an E-mail to our training coordinator in reference to my concerns.

I found this video, and thought that it showed some great principles and techniques in relation to knife fighting. I like the instructor's approach, which appears realistic and well-trained. Let me know what you guys think, and any advice or input you may have.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7rn1zhF ... re=related
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight." ~ Chinese proverb

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Seburo
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Re: Knife defense

Postby Seburo » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:25 am

No practical experience, but have looked through a lot of SD styles to find "the best one".

IMO Kelly McCann / Crucible has some of the best stuff. Their knife stuff is a base of classic forearm block/retaliate with the other arm, along with a series of "go big or go home" techniques.

Slashing knife example (go big or go home)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWQrkFErRuc

At least consider their stuff. This is the place I would start. Youtube to see more.

/internet warrior out
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Jesse
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Re: Knife defense

Postby Jesse » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:59 am

I really like McCann, AMOK with Tom Sotis, etc.... They're bringing a very realistic bent to things. At the same time I did want to mention that the WW2 style X blocks etc... do have a purpose and are still relevant in some situations. They were designed for close environments like a trench where you could not get off the line of attack and were forced to face it, stop it, and deal with it or die. Obviously, they are not ideal for a situation where you can get off the line of attack. Unfortunately, there still are situations where you cannot such as between two parked cars or if you're protecting a family member behind you. I agree that they're more risky, but bear in mind the situations they're designed for. Mobility based defenses are much more ideal, but you do need some option for when the mobility is taken away.

Alethology
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Re: Knife defense

Postby Alethology » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:46 am

I am not a fan of any video tutorial that shows overly compliant attackers moving with the speed of a sloth on Valium.
Knife defense like all RBSD is something that should not be hard to assess personally if you keep it brutal, with no scripting or compliance. Set up test parameters that conform to that and most shit fails miserably. Most can't deal this though and so prefer the fantasy where there is some magical technique that will compensate for deficits in awareness, intensity, size, strength ect.
On knife attacks, the data collected shows that the vast majority of the time you will not identify the blade, so that being the case, it is fatuous to have set knife defense moves. Work on developing from your own flinch response a move that works for you on high and low line strikes whether the attacker is armed or not. And by works I mean increases your own survival percentages, for if you are being attacked properly you will still be cut and die plenty of times.
I can't recomend as particular defense response as there are too many individual factors to account for. I'll leave that to the 'Master's'.

pathfighter
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Re: Knife defense

Postby pathfighter » Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 am

Alethology wrote:I am not a fan of any video tutorial that shows overly compliant attackers moving with the speed of a sloth on Valium.
Knife defense like all RBSD is something that should not be hard to assess personally if you keep it brutal, with no scripting or compliance. Set up test parameters that conform to that and most shit fails miserably. Most can't deal this though and so prefer the fantasy where there is some magical technique that will compensate for deficits in awareness, intensity, size, strength ect.
On knife attacks, the data collected shows that the vast majority of the time you will not identify the blade, so that being the case, it is fatuous to have set knife defense moves. Work on developing from your own flinch response a move that works for you on high and low line strikes whether the attacker is armed or not. And by works I mean increases your own survival percentages, for if you are being attacked properly you will still be cut and die plenty of times.
I can't recomend as particular defense response as there are too many individual factors to account for. I'll leave that to the 'Master's'.


For the vast majority of people who train in self-defense, this right here is some wisdom. Evade the threat if you can, don't dwell on the knife, use your hard-wired blocks/evasions, attack the man, defeat him or escape.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...

pathfighter
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Re: Knife defense

Postby pathfighter » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:00 am

Hi Calgacus. I follow my teacher's system, which is based on Skornik and Krav Maga. As you know, I'm not a scholar of DT by any means. I just try to be a good student.

What we are taught to do is to use the same flinch response and blocks that we do when fighting hand to hand. We are then taught to neutralize our opponent, using weapons if we have them. If not, then empty hand strikes. We are also big on integrating weapons and empty hand techniques-- never forget your god-given weapons (on pain of being kicked in the balls (seems to be popular with the israelis)).

When I say "flinch response", it must be repeated that these are trained responses which are designed to tap into the natural flinch response. They don't look like an untrained flinch. These are used in the case of a surprise attach. Else, we use more typical blocks.

The same simple, effective movements are drilled, drilled, drilled, and then drilled again under fatigue and under duress.

We are furthermore taught to expect to be cut, but to keep fighting to neutralize the opponent.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...

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RJ Warrior
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Re: Knife defense

Postby RJ Warrior » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:42 am

While shock knife training is probably the best way to train, I am thinking about getting a wooden training knife and wrapping the blade with sand paper. Then, drill defenses and such with the sand paper blade. I think that this will at least cause some more natural responses if contact is made, if nothing else to instill the ability to continue fighting after contact has happened.

I like the concept of reacting the same to a blade as you would to an empty hand strike. It makes sense, being that most victims of knife attacks didn't even recognize that the blade was there until after the attack already occurred. With that approach in mind, I suppose your standard flinch response "bursting" from krav, and 45 degree block from the SPEAR method, and potentially even the Thai block would be great methods against surprise knife attacks.

Two theories on knife fighting from my perspective, and correct me if I'm wrong:

If attacked with a blade:

Scenario A - You have a weapon (firearm or blade)
- Defend with the intention of creating space to draw your weapon and neutralize.

Scenario B - You don't have a weapon
- Defend with the intention of closing the gap, wrapping up the attacker, and subduing him.

Agree/Disagree?
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight." ~ Chinese proverb

Alethology
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Re: Knife defense

Postby Alethology » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:47 am

Can we then talk of more intelligent and less intelligent training of startle flinch hard wired reactions???


I read the (very long) article you posted. And while it raised a few points, for the most part it just brought up a whole load of crap which will be of no use in that adrenaline/shock filled micro-second when some cunt is trying to take your head off (and you don't know if he has a weapon or not).
You want to train your flinch? Put in a mouth guard and have a training partner try to take your head off with a wholly non-scripted attack. Add to that response with some principles. Such as a fence stance. A spear like jam of the incoming limb. Closing the distance so that less opportunity for repeated attack is afforded your assailant. Some advocate attacking the head, others controlling the limb. Both can work. And both can see you killed. Only dying in training will tell you what works best for you.
Yeah, its interesting that if someone yells out Boo, or throws a basketball at you, you will give a different response. But keep at the forefront what you are training for. You could know none of that crap, but have stood in front of a training partner/s and have had them try to rage kill you a 1000 times with a training blade. Which would leave you best prepared? Honestly, I think people turn to all that long winded garbage because they are either uncomfortable with the simple savagery of it all. Or, they want to appear to be so much more intellectually/morally above it.
Ultimately mate, you can agree/disagree with what I wrote, it matters not a jot. All that's important is that you have determined through proper pressure testing what best saves your ass. If you have that, everyone else and their opinions can go to hell.

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Jesse
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Re: Knife defense

Postby Jesse » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:54 am

All right, thank you for your opinion.

How many of you actually do knife training whether on a regular basis or through seminars? Who do you train with?

I've had seminars with Tom Sotis of AMOK and Bryan Canatta and Steven Ledwith of MACK as well as a private session with Steven. I've also had some knife training with Nick Hughes during the course of regular combatives lessons.

I have a variety of practice knives and regularly practice. I intend to continue to travel for good training.

pathfighter
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Re: Knife defense

Postby pathfighter » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:00 am

Alethology wrote:
Can we then talk of more intelligent and less intelligent training of startle flinch hard wired reactions???


I read the (very long) article you posted. And while it raised a few points, for the most part it just brought up a whole load of crap which will be of no use in that adrenaline/shock filled micro-second when some cunt is trying to take your head off (and you don't know if he has a weapon or not).
You want to train your flinch? Put in a mouth guard and have a training partner try to take your head off with a wholly non-scripted attack. Add to that response with some principles. Such as a fence stance. A spear like jam of the incoming limb. Closing the distance so that less opportunity for repeated attack is afforded your assailant. Some advocate attacking the head, others controlling the limb. Both can work. And both can see you killed. Only dying in training will tell you what works best for you.
Yeah, its interesting that if someone yells out Boo, or throws a basketball at you, you will give a different response. But keep at the forefront what you are training for. You could know none of that crap, but have stood in front of a training partner/s and have had them try to rage kill you a 1000 times with a training blade. Which would leave you best prepared? Honestly, I think people turn to all that long winded garbage because they are either uncomfortable with the simple savagery of it all. Or, they want to appear to be so much more intellectually/morally above it.
Ultimately mate, you can agree/disagree with what I wrote, it matters not a jot. All that's important is that you have determined through proper pressure testing what best saves your ass. If you have that, everyone else and their opinions can go to hell.


I agree, not that you give a damn, new guy. Stick around.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...


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