Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

A place to discuss self defense, weapons, and related topics
User avatar
Maldoror
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:18 am
Location: Southern France
Contact:

Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby Maldoror » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Hi everyone, I've been a bouncer on and off, on weekends, in a busy street of bars and nightclubs, for about ten years, witnessing street fights on most of those nights, and I have had to use force and fight about once a month. I've had a few mma fights, and also competed in judo and no-gi BJJ. Never fought in boxing or kickboxing but been training and sparring with competitors for years. I've done some self defense training as well. I'm not a big bouncer at 6f1 and 200 pounds.

Being a trained martial artist sure helps. Don't get me wrong. But I'd rather have a bouncer with no cardio and technique but ridiculous punching power and who is hard to move watching my back than a small pro kickboxer or a bjj black belt.

The guys that I've seen doing the best against several threatening men were those could knock their opponent out with the first haymaker. Not the Krav expert, not the local thai boxing coach.

These are the guys that would certainly lose to the combat sport competitor of any weight after a couple minutes at the most, inside the ring, but this is about being devestating within a very small window of time in crowded places where there is no room for stick and move strategies. When a big guy clinches with you and starts throwing bombs hockey player style, it's tough to bob and weave.


Very few street fights will reward tactics that rely on wearing your opponent down, such as pummeling the lead leg with low kicks and landing multiple jabs.

They usually last for about half a minute, those short bouts maybe repeated a couple times but that's it. If you consider energy systems, phosphagen is the primary one. Being able to skip for 20 minutes won't get you anywhere.
Of course, occasionally you will see a fight lasting about a minute or even two, and of course everyone will be gassed out and the fittest guys will prevail at this point. But this is very seldom and not the type of cardio you will develop from steady state cardio and longer intervals.

You have a few seconds to dispatch your angry, spazzing opponent, and there is no place for rope-a-dope strategies.

I did not make this thread to voice my unpopular opinion like a condescending douche. But here's what I think most people training self defense should work on more(based on the classes I've attented and the people I met there):

Once you've got a decent striking and grappling fondation, work on your sport specific strength and power, a lot. Trained people rarely assault others on the streets or make trouble at night, those that will put you in danger willl usually be the big guys without much martial arts training. Being able to win a local amateur boxing championship won't get you very far ahead from the guy who's just done enough to outstrike intermediate trainees when it comes to fighting drunken big guys or scum harrassing your girlfriend.

-Work on aggressive striking combinations, no more multiple jabs or stick and move approach.

-Intense and short heavy bag/thai pads intervals.

-Work on max strength and explosive strength, olympic lifts and plyo, medecine ball throws, sprints... put on some mass if you can because yes, it's a lot about size.

I've come to this idea after a few situations when I was outnumbered or fighting bigger guys than me, the untrained bouncers with a lot of brute strength, size and punching power were doing better than me, even if they come to me to learn striking and grappling and are amazed at how I can manhandle them on the mat and beat them up using stick and move strategies in striking. But street fights are a whole different type of confrontation, much more agressive, much less technical, much shorter, and I feel like the self defense crowd is actually going in the opposite direction.

I don't believe that targetting the eyes, the throat or the crotch is magical, it's very hard to apply in real life from what I've seen. To me the number one strike missing from MMA is the headbut.

TLDR version: punching power and the ability to ragdoll most guys are the most valuable assets in self defense.

What are your thoughts? thanks for dropping your input.




TheLaw
Posts: 71
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 12:08 pm

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby TheLaw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:07 am

That's an interesting post, I agree with a lot of it. Thanks for posting.

User avatar
Wasteland
Posts: 47
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:47 am

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby Wasteland » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:17 pm

I entirely agree. It does seem that a large part of close combat is having a body with the right attributes. Hard mass, explosive aggression. It's underrated by MMA because of several things. Typically I like to watch the aggressive guys with more of a Mike Tyson strategy because I feel it's the stuff that has the most crossover to what you are describing.

I have noticed that in just casual free sparring, having more of those attributes myself has made just my sparring disproportionately damaging to smaller people. It's like step 1 is to build yourself over years into a human steamroller, then step 2 is to develop a strategy of stomping on the gas and steamrolling them the second it kicks off. Another thing is that IRL, first mover advantage, action>reaction etc. is very big. People are not aware of it, but in a lot of sport situations they are moving at submaximal speeds under perfect lighting and with lots of room to move and no element of surprise, so reactive strategies are given an advantage they don't actually have "IRL."

pathfighter
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby pathfighter » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:19 pm

When I trained in self defense with an Israeli combat instructor, we would get punched in the side of the head if we hung back during sparring. We had to go all out, all the time, precisely for the reasons you describe. Every strike has to be to debilitate or defeat.

With multiple opponents it was all about stacking and attacking.

But I will say that for the regular person who's not a bouncer or a close protection specialist, being able to run far and fast is the most useful skill.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...

User avatar
Maldoror
Posts: 119
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:18 am
Location: Southern France
Contact:

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby Maldoror » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:07 pm

pathfighter wrote:
But I will say that for the regular person who's not a bouncer or a close protection specialist, being able to run far and fast is the most useful skill.


Definitely, and it's a pity sprints aren't the bread and butter of self defense training for regular folks, but it"s obviously less markettable.

However sometimes fighting is the only sensible option. If you are dating a conventionnaly attractive girl in a rough area you find out that you will have to fight often.

pathfighter
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby pathfighter » Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:26 pm

Maldoror wrote:
pathfighter wrote:
But I will say that for the regular person who's not a bouncer or a close protection specialist, being able to run far and fast is the most useful skill.


Definitely, and it's a pity sprints aren't the bread and butter of self defense training for regular folks, but it"s obviously less markettable.

However sometimes fighting is the only sensible option. If you are dating a conventionnaly attractive girl in a rough area you find out that you will have to fight often.


Back when I lived in a rough area, my girl and I had a plan. She was a 5'8" 110lb, all legs, runner girl. Fast and could run for days. I was a power lifter / martial artist. If shit went down, her job was to get the fuck out of there so I didn't have to worry about her. I would take care of business then run if I could too.

Never had to use the plan, but it was good to have one. All my fights have been short and solo. For the most part, just looking prepared and being alert seemed to make bad guys look elsewhere.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...

User avatar
Jesse
Posts: 1110
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Brazil hiding from Speedy

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby Jesse » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:24 am

I appreciate the thinking behind this, but it's been done. What people fail to stop and seriously think about is a practical application for this to every day real life. I'm not going to drop what I do to go become a bouncer. I need to find someone decently mean and nasty to train me focused on aggression and getting into it. Oh wait...been doing that for a while.

Someone who is a bouncer needs to go find someone who knows what they're doing with proper technique so they can actually do what they do more effectively.

So all it amounts to is the need to accurately assess yourself and what you need to do in order to enhance what you already know and eliminate the holes in your game/thinking.

Does anyone actually sit out there setting up fantasy bouts between bouncers and Mr. Miyagi? :doh:

pathfighter
Posts: 2268
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:50 am

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby pathfighter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:53 pm

I didn't say it earlier, but I should have.

If comparing a small, highly skilled person vs. a large, low-skilled person, I'd rather have the bigger person as a bouncer. They are better able to control people without hurting them or intimidate them into playing nice. A smaller man will have to resort to his training more often, which will result in more injuries, or worse.

All things being equal, of course it is better to be well-trained. I would rather a well-trained large bouncer over both of the guys above.
jimlang wrote: Bunch a burpee lovin' dorks...

User avatar
Paladin
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 10:27 pm
Location: Undisclosed
Contact:

Re: Bouncer opinion: power and strength win street fights more than ring and mat time

Postby Paladin » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:19 pm

pathfighter wrote:I didn't say it earlier, but I should have.

If comparing a small, highly skilled person vs. a large, low-skilled person, I'd rather have the bigger person as a bouncer. They are better able to control people without hurting them or intimidate them into playing nice. A smaller man will have to resort to his training more often, which will result in more injuries, or worse.

All things being equal, of course it is better to be well-trained. I would rather a well-trained large bouncer over both of the guys above.


Very good point, that Bouncers generally need to be big and tough looking, mainly for the intimidation factor that tends to put a damper on a lot of things that could get out of control if the average angry drunk thought the little guy at the door was just the little guy at the door... I'm talking about the visual deterrence factor when you've got huge, mean-looking gorillas keeping the peace. If they're well trained, then you've got the best of both worlds. My partner in our training company is a bouncer at a night club most weekends. They have incidents every couple weeks. He's big and very skilled, but has little say in who the owners pair him up with, and that has caused some challenges when things got out of hand.
Blessed be the Lord my rock, Who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle! Psalm 144:1
For those who have hunted armed men, training will never be the same.
Help the children of fallen heroes: Please Donate: http://www.specialops.org/


Return to “Weapons and Tactics”


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users